PICS: ATL Live On The Park
The industry was thick at last night’s ATL LIVE ON THE PARK monthly music showcase produced by Shanti Das & Marlon Nichols. Devyne Stephens‘ Upfront Megatainment hosted the night, which saw the likes of Akon, Jermaine Dupri, Steve Rifkind, Jazze Pha, Q. Parker (112), and so many more. Hundreds of Atlanta’s key influencers and business professionals packed the Piedmont Tent at Park Tavern to witness performances by RL (NEXT); Dave Hollister, Rock City and R&B newcomers Majic Massey and Cassandra Batie. Kenny Burns and Def Comedy Jam’s Vanessa Fraction emcee’d while DJ Salah Ananse and the Teddy White Band kept the energy high. Special thanks to our sponsors Orange Crush (Experience Crush, Experience Flavor) and Lincoln (who displayed the new Lincoln MKS)!
Additional attendees included: Roger Bobb (EVP, Tyler Perry Studios); Jamal Lewis (Fmr Baltimore Ravens running back); Ceasar Mitchell (Atlanta City Council President); Hurricane Dave (Radio One); Keiona Johnson (CNN); Shante Paige (Tyler Perry Studios); Sheree Whitfield (Real Housewives of Atlanta); actress Natasha Henstridge (Species), Tameka Raymond (Estella Boutique); Dwight Eubanks (Real Housewives of Atlanta); Brianna Jenkins (Next Food Network Star); rapper Pastor Troy, Danielle Crawley (E!/Candy Girls); J Carter (Sol Fusion); publicist Tresa Sanders, Shawn “Tubby” Holiday (Interscope Records); and R&B veteran Tony Terry who surprised the crowd with a throwback rendition of “When I’m With You.” Good music is definitely alive and well.
Written by Saptosa Foster | The 135th Street Agency
Photo Credit: James Pray
Singer Akon, record exec Steve Rifkind (Sanaa Lathan’s boy toy); music mogul DeVyne Stephens (Upfront Megatainment)
Akon performing
Music producer Jazze Pha, who recently lost 70 lbs for a reality TV show weight challenge; and TV producer Vawn
Akon, event organizer Shanti Das; DeVyne Stephens (Upfront Megatainment)
Tameka Foster
Sheree Whitfield (RHOA)
Evan Forster and actress Natasha Henstridge (Species)
Dwight Eubanks (RHOA)
R&B singer Dave Hollister
Atmosphere
Shay Buckeey Johnson (Flavor of Love 2)
RL (Next)
Singer Q Parker (112)
Rapper Pastor Troy
Event organizers Marlon Nichols, left and Shanti Das; former mayoral candidate, Lisa Borders; Ceasar Mitchell (Atlanta City Council President)
Male socialite Kenny Burns (Beehive FM mid-day jock)
Jamal Lewis (Fmr Baltimore Ravens running back) and music producer-turned-DJ, Jermaine Dupri
How U Doin Tony Terry!
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99 Responses to “PICS: ATL Live On The Park”
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NOTHING TO LOOK AT HERE CAN WE HAVE A JUICE POST???
RL & Q: Caaaaallllll me!!!
Mr. Q. Parker & Kay Cei…
all nite long, as long as there are no DL rumors or anything like that. That is my TYPE OF BROTHER. Eww wee!
Dave Hollister will always be a man that I respect. He gave me some very encouraging and educational words when I auditioned to do background for him and Jazz from Dru Hill back in the day. Loves them both for that.
Akon cleans up real nice. I
Dave Hollister…came down the aisle @ my wedding to his song “Forever”
OMG @ TONY TERRY YOUR SMILE IS EVEN GAY
JAMAL LOOKS LIKE HE’S GONNA SNAP AND CHOKE THE LIVING HELL OUT OF J.D.IN 5,4,3,2
I THOUGHT DAVE HOLLISTER SINGS GOSPEL NOW
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE R.L.
SHEREE YOU ARE NOT IT
DID VAWN COLOR HIS BEARD IN WITH A CRAYON…IT LOOKS FAKE
PASTOR TROY LOOKS LIKE HE WENT TO THE WAXING SPA AND GOT ALL THE PUBIC HAIR SNATCH OFF POCKETS AND PUT THEM ON HIS FACE….EWWW
DWIGHT LOOKS LIKE MR. SPOCK
I love Tony Terry, don’t hate (LOL)! He sings one of the sweetest songs of all time “When I’m With You”. Hot guys in the building are: Akon, RL, Kenny Burns, Jamal Lewis and Vawn (if his beard didn’t look so fake, kinda lookin like my dude Flo Rida). Natasha Henstridge I haven’t seen her in a long time, she’s really pretty and still looks the same. Tameka looks nice. Jermaine looks better than usual.
kearalove says:
Akon cleans up real nice. I Dave Hollister…came down the aisle @ my wedding to his song “Forever”
______________________________________________________
I THOUGHT JAHEIM SUNG “FOREVER”…..FOREVER, THE LOVE I HAVE FOR YOU WILL LAST FOREVER…IS THAT THE ONE YOU ARE REFERING TO?
OMG SR,you must be going soft. You called Usher’s Ex by her name. I was sure I was going to see “Trampeka”
Nice pic of Tameka….Sheree is a male….thats all I got.
I had to send this pic of Tony Terry to my sister. She used to LOVE that dude back in the day.
She text me back talkin bout “The Gays are winning!” That bytch crazy.
“And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” -MATTHEW 19:24
So wait Tony Terry is gay? Say it aint so. And why does
Jamal Lewis have serious gay face?
looks like a ghetto D list party here folks…..
I love Tony Terry song “When I’m with you”… play it all the time.
My cuz is the one that helpin Jazze Pha loss all that weight..
Why does jazza pha always wear one color. He looks like the kool aid man
Well it looks like there was a lot of fun to be had! I still love Dave Hollister’s voice and RL’s too….kinda miss 112 matter fact!…*the 90′s music scene was and still iz Classic*
Q and RL are so hot…. I could definitely
all night long with those two….. Yikes!!!
I got nothing on the rest…
Ms. Thickness says:
kearalove says:
Akon cleans up real nice. I Dave Hollister…came down the aisle @ my wedding to his song “Forever”
______________________________________________________
I THOUGHT JAHEIM SUNG “FOREVER”…..FOREVER, THE LOVE I HAVE FOR YOU WILL LAST FOREVER…IS THAT THE ONE YOU ARE REFERING TO?
It’s definitely DH and it goes “Forever and ever, for good or bad weather, I’ll always remain, even though the seasons may change” 
Beautiful song that still brings tears to my eyes
________________
Naw, girl…I could never mix up my big bodied boos like that cuz I love em both
Krysi J says:
Well it looks like there was a lot of fun to be had! I still love Dave Hollister’s voice and RL’s too….kinda miss 112 matter fact!…*the 90’s music scene was and still iz Classic*
——————————————-
Oh, the days when singers could actually SANG…and not screech, whine, moan, breathe heavily, etc.
“Take care of home” was my shyt.
Awwwww shyt now im getting all nostalgic and shyt.
@Keara, KayC, and Chase
yall remember that song by DH “We’ve come too far……to give up on US….we’ve been thru too many things….we’ve cried 2 many tears to THROw it aH-WAay!”
I love that song!
Tony Terry….
True story: I met him in the lobby of the Biltmore back in ’97 during a stay with my then boyfriend. When I tell you that negro burned ALL my nostril hairs with his funky breath!!!I still wanna hurl at the thought. But funky breath and all, he’s a really sweet guy (no pun intended). I still have the picture I took with him. “With You” will forever be on my list of classic love songs…..
Sorry ladies, Q Parker is married to a cougar. They have a son together and she has a daughter in her 20′s.
@Krysi: That song and “Destiny” are my jams. Don’t make me pull out the CD… Chicago 85 was the bomb!!!
kearalove says:
Ms. Thickness says:
kearalove says:
Akon cleans up real nice. I Dave Hollister…came down the aisle @ my wedding to his song “Forever”
______________________________________________________
I THOUGHT JAHEIM SUNG “FOREVER”…..FOREVER, THE LOVE I HAVE FOR YOU WILL LAST FOREVER…IS THAT THE ONE YOU ARE REFERING TO?
Forever
________________
Naw, girl…I could never mix up my big bodied boos like that cuz I love em both It’s definitely DH and it goes “Forever and ever, for good or bad weather, I’ll always remain, even though the seasons may change” Beautiful song that still brings tears to my eyes
——-
Jaheim does have a song called ” forever”
The love I have for you will last
forever
loving you always
forever
my love for you won’t change
’cause loving you’s the best thing that I can do
Looking back on the times before you came
my life has changed
no more sleepless nights
or lonely days
they’re just a part of my yesterday
for you I’ve prayed
Forever
the love I have for you will last
forever
Chipmunk-like singing is not very appealing to me. Next.
Love that song
Wow, I don’t know where to begin with these pics. Shay “Buckeey” looks cute. Tony Terry and Uncle Dwight look like they could be “together”. Pastor Troy’s beard is rather disturbing–too hot for all of that hat. Tameka….(fill in the blank)
Looks like a nice party and fun had by all.
Krysi……..I miss the 90’s music……….I love love love dave hollister and 112…….
———————————————————————–
Yes indeed…..SILK….JoDEci…Mary J…..Tony Toni Tone….SWV…..H-town….TLC….Hi-Five….New Edition….Boyz II Men….Mariah….R.Kelly (b4 the charges)…Aaliyah…..tOO many TO NAME
Jazze Pha, you are looking good. Thanks for the inspiration.
@thetruth: I adore that song too
:whistles: Sang it Krysi!
If Donell Jones was at this show, that would’ve been the icing on the cake for me!
Oops
yvonne79 says:
@Krysi: That song and “Destiny” are my jams. Don’t make me pull out the CD… Chicago 85 was the bomb!!!
——
Destiny is the shyt. I might have to pull it out today
@KRYSI J
“Yes indeed…..SILK….JoDEci…Mary J…..Tony Toni Tone….SWV…..H-town….TLC….Hi-Five….New Edition….Boyz II Men….Mariah….R.Kelly (b4 the charges)…Aaliyah…..tOO many TO NAME”
__________________________________________________________________________________
And you got En Vogue and X-Scape, WHITNEY…
Cinderella says:
Sorry ladies, Q Parker is married to a cougar. They have a son together and she has a daughter in her 20’s.
Stop playing! I would be giving my daughter the side-eye of death every time she came around
_____________
@kearalove: Donnell Jones was at the Verizon Wireless Amphitheatre performing two weeks ago here in Atlanta. He sounds wonderful live. He did mention he has an album coming out in September if memory serves me correctly….
Krysi J says:
@Keara, KayC, and Chase
yall remember that song by DH “We’ve come too far……to give up on US….we’ve been thru too many things….we’ve cried 2 many tears to THROw it aH-WAay!”
I love that song!
________________________________________
@ Krysi…YES!! LOVES DAVE! Then he came back and hit us with “Favorite Girl”. That was some drama for you. I was frustrated trying to learn those words, but I got that -ish! LOL! And even when he was w/ BlackStreet, “Before I Let Go” was on constantly in my house.
@ kearalove
Donell Jones has a new song out. Tom played it on his show
Damn with all this 90′s music… guess I will go home and make a mix cd…awwww.
@kearalove: Donnell Jones was at the Verizon Wireless Amphitheatre performing two weeks ago here in Atlanta. He sounds wonderful live. He did mention he has an album coming out in September if memory serves me correctly….
Donnell…Where I Wanna Be STAYS in my car alongside MJ’s Off The Wall.
_______________
Donell Jones has a new song out. Tom played it on his show
________________
I
I had a great time at this event last night! It was wonderful to see so many old friends! I miss these kind of “real” Atlanta industry events where people can come and just chill out. I will be supporting ATL Live on the Park every month! Dave Hollister SANG his butt off! “Take Care of Home” is my favorite of his songs! He did an awesome tribute to celebrate the life and musical legacy of Gerald Levert. Gerald would have been 44 yesterday. RL is just as sexy as always! Everyone be on the lookout for Cassandra Batie! Her voice is phenomenal. She has a soulful and sultry sound and she can really sing! I love Tony Terry! He never ages and sounds great!
Krysi J says:
@Keara, KayC, and Chase
yall remember that song by DH “We’ve come too far……to give up on US….we’ve been thru too many things….we’ve cried 2 many tears to THROw it aH-WAay!”
I love that song!
—————————————-
Sure do that was my jam..
@ CinderelIa I know Q is married, shoot I’m married to… Just stating what I’d like to do w/ him if we were both single of course…
Awwww before I let you go can I get a kiss goodnite…….
Yvonne……chicago 85 was the bomb.com…….that whole cd(with the exception of a few) was the shyt.
Donell jones was the shyt too
awww bout to go pull out the cds.
“Cause when you love someone you just don’t treat them bad…oh how I feel so sad….now that I wanna leave…..she’s crying her heart to me…. how could you let this be
Tony Terry is not gay. He was there last night with his wife and young son.
@ Cinnamon
Cause when you love someone you just don’t treat them bad…oh how I feel so sad….now that I wanna leave…..
I just heard that song on the radio..
Inp03 says:
Tony Terry is not gay. He was there last night with his wife and young son.
————————————————————————-
You almost made me spit my drink out. You shi++ing me. WOW!!!!!!
“I had a BLAST” dats all I can say………. TAFN (that’s all fa now)
@ thetruth32…… I LOVE that song……..hell I
me some Donell jones. I was actually going through a break up when that c.d came out….very therapeutic for me. I wish my radio played some Donell Jones.
Cinnamon Kisses says:
@ thetruth32…… I LOVE that song……..hell I me some Donell jones. I was actually going through a break up when that c.d came out….very therapeutic for me. I wish my radio played some Donell Jones.
___________________
@Cinnamon, we are >>>>>>>>>>>>HERE<<<<<<<<<<<<< That CD brought me through some dark times…brings back lots of memories.
Cinnamon Kisses says:
@ thetruth32…… I LOVE that song……..hell I me some Donell jones. I was actually going through a break up when that c.d came out….very therapeutic for me. I wish my radio played some Donell Jones.
————
I love it too.
I just heard “Blackberry Molasses” by Mista.. Love that cd
@ kearalove…..
ME TOO. I will always play that cd.
I
Donnell Jones!
qtipthecat says:
I
Donnell Jones!
*****************************
When it comes to true R&B(not neo-soul), I don’t think ANYONE can fcuk with Donnell.
Love Mista too….hell I’ve always been a fan of Bobby Valentino’s voice I guess
WHAT ABOUT TROOP yall………….aww man TROOP was the BOMB!!
“ALL I doOOooo Is think OF yoOUU DAAaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAY and NIiiiiiiiiiiiIIIiight….thats ALLLLLllllll I DOOo-OOo…”
Hol’ up, Hol’ up…Did someone say that K-Ci and JoJo got a reality show coming out??
Tell me my eyes are deceiving me…
lnp03 says:
Tony Terry is not gay. He was there last night with his wife and young son.
————————-
Al-Ameera says:
OMG SR,you must be going soft. You called Usher’s Ex by her name. I was sure I was going to see “Trampeka”
————————
I felt sorry for her. You know she’s the poster child for everything that can go wrong with plastic surgery.
HEY SR FAM!!!
Hey Mean
Love Mista too….hell I’ve always been a fan of Bobby Valentino’s voice I guess WHAT ABOUT TROOP yall………….aww man TROOP was the BOMB!!
“ALL I doOOooo Is think OF yoOUU DAAaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAY and NIiiiiiiiiiiiIIIiight….thats ALLLLLllllll I DOOo-OOo…”
——-
Bobby wasn’t the lead in that group either…Love Troop too. Man we had some good music
@KRYSI J
You have good taste. I think Troop’s reindition of “All I Do Is Think Of You” is actually better than the Jackson 5 version. How many times can you say that?
This is Jazzy Pha AFTER he lost weight??? Wow!!! Just wow…
RL looking like he’s been eating really, really good!
Men in hollywood “spread” in their 30s, huh? (Chris Tucker, Martin Lawrence, etc., etc.,)–I guess they don’t need to keep up their figure like hollywood starlets need to
You have good taste. I think Troop’s reindition of “All I Do Is Think Of You” is actually better than the Jackson 5 version. How many times can you say that?
————————————————————————-
I never actually heard the Jackson 5 version…I thought it was TROOPs song for the longest
Im sure the Jackson 5 did their thing but TROOP made it sound like their own…I liked Lil COry’s version too.
HEY MEAN!!!
don’t come in here clowning…… 
then again I need the laughs!!
Yall what about GUY………..awwww MAN GUY and Aaron HALL WAS THE SHYT!!
“I LIKE”
“the things you do to MEEEEeeeee”
or “I MISS UUUuuuuuuu, Im talking to you BAAaaaaaE-BEeeeeeh I miss u”
“LEEeeeeeeTs CHILLLLllllll”
oooH and
“YOU Can get a piece of MY LOOOooove, I’ll be waiting 4 UUUUuuu, girl its TRUuuuuee…I Du LOOOOooVe YOUUUUUUuuuuuuu!!”
—my Dad owned a radio station during the 90′s….I loved every bit of music back then….NOW….not as much.
80s-90s R&B was the shhhhhhhhiiiittt back in the day!
I purchase throw-back CDs from Amazon on a weekly basis now. New joints? Not feeling ‘em. Throw-back Prince or some Keith Sweat? Constant, constant rotation.
Most “recent” CDs I purchase: “Oooh on the TLC Tip”, “Totally Krossed Out” and “Blood on the Dance Floor”. Love, love, love me some throw-back R&B!!!
Thetruth32 says:
I just heard “Blackberry Molasses” by Mista.. Love that cd
———————————–
My jam was “Lady”–(‘would you mind if I politely kiss your hand?’)
Keara–PLEASE tell me that JoJo and K-CI are doing a reality show!!! PLEASE!!!
@ IsaiahsMom…
they are! I saw it earlier in another post…It’s gonna be on TVOne and it’s called Come Clean 
@ that name! I just wanna see K-Ci’s sessy bird chest glistening on my screen!
Loveeeeeeeee Keith Sweat……I had 50-11 posters of him back in the day.
Krysi J says:
You have good taste. I think Troop’s reindition of “All I Do Is Think Of You” is actually better than the Jackson 5 version. How many times can you say that?
————————————————————————-
I never actually heard the Jackson 5 version…I thought it was TROOPs song for the longest Im sure the Jackson 5 did their thing but TROOP made it sound like their own…I liked Lil COry’s version too.
HEY MEAN!!! don’t come in here clowning…… then again I need the laughs!!
Yall what about GUY………..awwww MAN GUY and Aaron HALL WAS THE SHYT!!
“I LIKE”
“the things you do to MEEEEeeeee”
or “I MISS UUUuuuuuuu, Im talking to you BAAaaaaaE-BEeeeeeh I miss u”
“LEEeeeeeeTs CHILLLLllllll”
oooH and
“YOU Can get a piece of MY LOOOooove, I’ll be waiting 4 UUUUuuu, girl its TRUuuuuee…I Du LOOOOooVe YOUUUUUUuuuuuuu!!”
******************
All time favorite song by Guy, “Tease Me”
@ IsaiahsMom
Lady was my shyt too. I saw them in ATL at the park. It was them, Niva and Lil Zane…lol. Niva was horrible
YUUP “Tease Me” was the Shyt. Its on my work computer
We can’t forget about Silk
“love you down”, “more & More”
I love Guy ” Baby Don’t Go”
Don’t tell me things that I wanna hear
Just to please my ear
Yeah that drives me crazy
Girl, I’m gonna ask you one more time
What’s on your mind?
Cause the signals hazy
You’re not the kind of girl who laughs at me
When I tell you all the things I wanna be
And that’s why I plead
Baby, baby, baby, please don’t leave me
Baby, baby, baby, please don’t leave me
Baby, baby, baby, please don’t leave me out
Let me close my door… I’m Jammin at Work
Oh yea Yvonne….”Tease me”
don’t know how I missed that one!!
@75 Kisses……………………OMG……..my auntie LOVED Keith Sweat…..she is the reason why I love him so much….she played his CD over and over again!!
Wait yall please don’t forget about READY FOR THE WORLD!!!!!….we’ll be here all day long!
^^^ I’m not ‘hip’ to “Tease me” by Guy (and Guy is my shyt!)–what CD is it on??? I love me some “Spend the night” “Groove Me” and “Piece of my Love”
Keara, I am DVR’ing that JoJo/KCI when it comes out!!! You just made my day!!! LOL!
I LOVE that K-CI is okay with ripping his shirt off as if he has a nice body/is cut, etc.,! Skinny-bird-chest-behind! Love that man!!!
Aye Truth–I had a HUGE crush on Lil Zane
where is he nowadays?
Best concert I attended? A middle-school jam here in Cleveland a few years ago. It was Guy, Tony/Toni/Tone, and Blackstreet. We knew ALL of the words to the jams, btw! 80s baby right here!!! LOL!
@ IsaiahsMom
I had a crush on him too… until I met him in person and I was so much taller then him.. it went away…. LOL
If he’d drape himself in a bed sheet, Pastor Troy would look like a Hebrew Israelite.
:omg: I saw Jazze’s neck!
@IsaiahsMom: I had the name wrong. “Tease Me Tonight” is on The Future CD. I’m sure if you go on YouTube you can find it there. Let me know if you like it!
Girl, you’re all I want….
And you’re all I need…
Why are you doing this to me?
I wanna make sweet love to you..
let’s do it now…
let me come inside…
I want to bring you joy….
Oh baby….
*Que Teddy and Damion for background vocals*
Baby tease me tonight….
Girl, I feel alright…
I wanna love you all over…
*sigh* Love, love, love that song. Aaron Hall could sooooo get it!!!
Krysi J says:
Well it looks like there was a lot of fun to be had! I still love Dave Hollister’s voice and RL’s too….kinda miss 112 matter fact!…*the 90’s music scene was and still iz Classic*
——————————————-
Nothing like the 80 and 90s music real R&B has disappeared I put a APB out on it…
Yvonne–I’ve got to get that CD!!!! That’s the only one I don’t have. LOL–you a fool for knowing all the lyrics and shyt!
You are officially the champ… 
*On Amazon right now purchasing*
The Dude in the first couple of PICS with all the different colors colliding with HIS dress-attire & ensemble is SO FLAMING HOTT that He’s about to CATCH-On-FIRE !!!!!
So Buckeey’s sex-tape was an EPIL-FAIL as far as Celebrity stardom Goes
And on THAT NOTE Kendra is RAKING in MAJOR $$$ for her PURE Whorish WAYS with those TWO Raunchy-AZZ Sex-Tapes she’s got out now… ONE in particular is the RICHEST DEAL ever agreed to as far as Celebrity Sex-Tapes goes and 2nd place in that category is NOWHERE NEAR CLOSE in MONETARY VALUE to Hers…
I GUESS we no longer have to WONDER why Hank chose to marry this YT SLUT-n-WHORE… That BOI got Major GAME
Am NOT feeling the full facial beard/sideburn/mustache combo that Vawn and Jazzy Pha are sporting
This party looks a busted mess. What in the sam hell is “Buckyee” doing there, along with Sheree and her raggedy edges.
Lord have mercy…!
Dang I missed 90s music convo. Dave, Guy, Keith, Al B., Donnell, Rome, Montell, Jodeci, MARY, Faith, Brownstone, ahhh, memories
@IsaiahsMom: What can I say? I enjoy music..
Shauny says:
Dang I missed 90s music convo. Dave, Guy, Keith, Al B., Donnell, Rome, Montell, Jodeci, MARY, Faith, Brownstone, ahhh, memories
————
Watcha know about Rome? I still have his first CD
@Yvonne… What YYOOOOUUUUUUU Know Bout Rome
That “Do You Like This, Do You Like That” & “I Belong To You” STR8 FIYAH !!!
Sooo.. “TELL ME The Truth Now Baby, Have YOU found another LOVER”
ELove says:
@Yvonne… What YYOOOOUUUUUUU Know Bout Rome
That “Do You Like This, Do You Like That” & “I Belong To You” STR8 FIYAH !!!
Sooo.. “TELL ME The Truth Now Baby, Have YOU found another LOVER”
———
What…..Rome was the truth back in 95/96! Someone a while back mentione he 2nd album but I never seen it anywhere.
is that ELove who I’m not speakin to????
Yvonne let’s not forget about Link
DRU HILL!!!!!!
@Brown (comment #96…)
Guy’s “Where Did LUV Go” (The Interlude)
OMG
@ tonny terry. at this point in life, that smile just says IDGAF what you and nobody else thinks. I heard stuff years ago about him, but nah, not true. shut me the hell up.
RL can still get it, cute ass. Am I the only one who feels like it’s the same people at every ATL event? I know these people apparently make up the atlanta social scene, but still.